To him who is obedient, the Keys are given
16 September 1970
Questioner: If you're sitting for the first practice – Seeing – and the Sound intervenes very strongly, what to do then?
Kirpal Singh: I tell you, if you cannot bear that strong Sound, it is better to divert your attention to Seeing. That will polish down.
Question: It is better to divert, like to Seeing?
Kirpal Singh: Yes, to Seeing, to lessen the unbearableness, or follow the Sound; That will drag you into the beyond. You see? Either of the two, whichever you like. If the Sound is very strong and you cannot bear It, then divert your attention to Seeing. That unbearableness will go. It will become bearable. Or, you follow It, and It will drag you into the Beyond. You follow me? You may sit in the same position, that makes no difference. Sitting on the feet position is always better because it is the position of the child in the womb of the mother. In that case you withdraw. If you simply begin to sit on feet, your soul will withdraw. That sitting position helps.
Question: So I should change? If I'm going to listen, I should change?
Kirpal Singh: All right, you'll just take your thumbs from your ears and see. Repeat the Names. That will polish down. Or if you follow Sound, That will drag you into the Beyond. Go, and Master will be waiting for you.
Question: Master, how should one conduct oneself in the presence of a Master?
Kirpal Singh: That's different according to each man's advancement. I think by questioning, we put one question, one phase of it, and He replies to that. But if you leave off all questions, simply hear Him, and become receptive, all your questions will be replied to. As I told you, I only put two questions to my Master, all through my life. First was about visualizing Master's form. That I told you about already [9th September].
The other was What is the proof that this Science will remain alive after You? and He said, For whomsoever I will order, I am responsible; for others I am not. These are His words. And then I further put Him the question, In what form He will be? He said, He will be in Sikh form. So these were the only questions … I learned all by simply looking into Him, and hearing what He said.
Now this is not the fate of everybody. Who has stepped into the intellectual plane must have the whys and wherefores, He must understand. He should put in all questions, clarify always, because he won't be able to take up the way unless he's intellectually satisfied, has got some proof. So it's better always to clear your heart.
As I told you the other day, there was one learned man, another was an unlearned man. There were a hundred stairs to reach the top of the building. The unlearned man said, All right, if you have to go up to see sun, go up, and he starts going up, you see. But the learned man says, Well, first of all, give me any example, any evidence from anybody that I'll see the sun when I go up. Then he says, Suppose my foot has slipped? Then what to do? You see? He would like to understand. Then he puts in a day or two, goes fifty steps or forty steps, but he does not see any light. It's all dark. No light. Sun is there. You'll see when you withdraw your attention from all sides, rise above outgoing faculties. Mind is still. Seat of the soul is at back of the eyes.
Fix your attention just there, the place where the Shiv Netra, the third eye or single eye is. You'll see Light. If you're going up, you'll see Light. So those who've got questions should simply let them loose, give me all questions, and those will be replied.
Sometimes people write to me: Where is the proof? I tell them, All right, go inside. One writes, I want time to be all alone with You. – All right, I'll give you this. You come here, sit inside the room, and lock it up and keep the key with you and don't come out unless your questions are answered. This is what I tell them. Questions are of the same nature, put in a different way, that's all. Unless you go up, you cannot see. When you're near the top of the house, when you're near the roof, then you'll see little glimpses of light. When you really go up, you see full Light. So it is better for those who have entered into the intellectual plane to be satisfied. All these things need to be explained; that such and such Master said such and such things, only for a little courage to take up the way. It appears to be correct to him, but he can not be satisfied unless he sees for himself.
Question: What’s the explanation of the different colours of Lights that are seen in meditation?
Kirpal Singh: No book will give you, I tell you. But there is a reason for it, there’s reason for it. That depends on the Inner Development, backgrounds, some dominating attributes in his life, you see. That’s the cause of all the different colours. So, yellow, golden Light is spiritual; pure white Light is also …, this is spiritual; red Light, you will find, where at least there’s some pushing attitude. These are different stages, different colours, different sounds also.
Question: Are they different Lights for different people or are they the same progression of Lights for everybody?
Kirpal Singh: Those who have got background, they go up – further. Those who have to start, there’s a regular way. They will see the sky; they’ll see stars, the big star, then transcend it; then moon comes, then transcend it. Those who have got the background, they start all at once from there – that’s it.
Question: Yes, I’m just thinking, every morning in here, when we meet, everybody seems, sees various Lights and ah, we seem to be about on the same level, many of us.
Kirpal Singh: (Not clear: […] there are samples). Some they know. There is one who sees two Masters, Master Sawan Singh …
(Interruption from the interviewer: That, of course, is beyond most of us).
Not beyond. I get letters [saying Master appears within]. Of those who are regular, they have it. They talk too.
Question: Blue Light, the blue Light, You didn’t touch on that. Everybody seems to see the blue Light. What’s that?
Kirpal Singh: That’s the first – a loving attitude. You see. The picture of Lord Krishna, blue, you see, yellow, blue, that’s light, I mean golden light, these are three. Outer form you see. His face is blue, robes are yellow. That’s showing the combination of different developments.
Question: So, so really when you start to meditate, you should try to get at that golden Light as rapidly as possible?
Kirpal Singh: You cannot visualise, you see. That comes of itself. When you reach that plane, naturally that point comes, but that is (as I told you), that is where Master’s form manifests.
Question: And, and these Lights just seem to stay for a short time. Will that increase as time goes by?
Kirpal Singh: By regular practice, regular practice and that time is increased only, the longer you can stay in whatever you see, continuously without break. The more progress will also be there.
Question: Suppose you have to scratch yourself. Does that take you right back to the beginning again?
Kirpal Singh: If that happens, you've not risen above body consciousness. You're still not at the top of the roof; you're still on the way. If you had risen above, you wouldn't have felt it.
Question: Some people have said, too, that just about all the body consciousness disappears and there they are, up above, but nothing else happens. That's where the Grace of the Master enters in, isn't it?
Kirpal Singh: Grace of the Master works the very first day when He initiates you. It is there. Money is deposited in your name in the bank. It is for you to go to the window to have the money, that's all. The more you can stay at the window, the more you can have.
Question: If You don't mind my saying so …
Kirpal Singh: No, no, I don't mind anything; the worst possible …
Question: I think I read in some books …
Kirpal Singh: Written by whom?
Question: Either by You or by Your Master Sawan Singh … That the Grace of the Master is at the pure discretion of the Master.
Kirpal Singh: Surely.
Question: Does that imply then that on occasion, the Master might like someone more than someone else?
Kirpal Singh: Why? Why? Is He a worldly man?
Question: No, I mean among initiates.
Kirpal Singh: Among initiates who have more obedience, He's got more love for them.
Question: He gets more Grace?
Kirpal Singh: Grace. The more you turn your face, the more Grace you have. If you shut your eyes in a room and say, I do see darkness and don't see any light, then it is for you to come out, that's all. He has love, that is why He initiates. A man may give you clothes, may give you money, may give you buildings. Nobody gives his life. He (the Master) gives you His life. His life is Light and Sound. He gives you Life, you see, His very Life to start with so that you will develop. So who can give this? Here also you'll find very few who'll give their blood. That's a very great sacrifice He has made, but He gives His Life. His Life is what? Word made flesh.
Question: You've placed a portion of Your Life in us?
Kirpal Singh: Well, yes. A man who sees Light within, He can give you Light. He who has no Light within, how can he give Light? From a burning lamp you can light another lamp. But from the lamp that is not already lit, how can you light another lamp?
Question: That gets me back to a question which I asked earlier but which perhaps I didn't phrase well enough, but seems appropriate … how should we behave in the presence of a Master? Some of us aren't certain. Some of us wonder if we're doing the right thing, if we're according the correct courtesy and so on.
Kirpal Singh: I tell you. Go to Him in whatever attitude you like. If you are really after the Truth, He won't be annoyed by your questions, even if you ask one hundred and one. He'll explain to you, lovingly. You may even go to Him with criticism. He'll reply to them in a very loving way. If (the questioner) understands, he'll change. People come; they put in so many (one hundred and one) questions, and then they see, because I told you many things are taught not by tongue, only one-third, two-thirds through radiation through eyes. So when a man sits in front of a Master, His eyes are the windows of His soul. That also affects.
Question: I mean, do you behave toward a Master as one does toward an Emperor?
Kirpal Singh: Take Him as your elder brother; take Him as your father, as your friend. Just understand what He says. When you get something substantial for which you bear out evidence yourself; you see that it is so, then start; go on with what He says. The highest criterion, I think, is a Master who is able to give something to start with, some capital to start with. That capital is given only by raising you above the body consciousness for a while. Of Him, whosoever can give you that, you can say safely, He's got something beyond. How great He is! I think when you know Him you'll become that very Man. In the early times when I went to my Master, some people asked me, How great is your Master? So I told them, I don't know how great He is. That much I know for certain, He is more than what I want. A very honest reply. If you know a Guru or a Master, you'll become the Master. He cannot be known. Very few people really know the Master. They know only some part of whatever He condescends to give them.
Question: While You are having this talk here with us tonight, are You having similar talks on other planes with more advanced of Your initiates?
Kirpal Singh: You see, the point is, they are not left alone. Those who have no attachment to the world, they are taken to the different planes, to whatever stage they have advanced. If they have no attachments for the world left except for the Master, they will not even be sent down in the man body. They will progress further. He advises them there. But there's one thing to note. It takes much longer time to have that progress there as compared with what you can have here now in shorter time. What you can do in years there, you can do in months here. Why do I press it [to do your practices here]? Why did my Master press it? A learned man, a scholar, is only a scholar after death if he was a scholar while alive. If I go out of this building, it does not mean that I've changed. Whatever we have developed, we go to that plane. From there we have to go on. The more we can do here, the better.
Question: But it must be done correctly.
Kirpal Singh: With proper guidance and help, and by receptivity also.
Question: Does incorrect meditation count in our favor?
Kirpal Singh: It is better as compared with not doing it. But it is up to you, if you want to progress here. Hafiz, who was a great Saint of Persia, said, Sit down in meditation at His door. Don't think whether He has heard you or not. Your duty is to sit at His door, quite cut off from the world and that is all, nothing more to be done. Do we sit quite cut off from the world? If so, you will have It. Why don't we transcend? Because we are attached; we've got so many entanglements, you see.
Question: Assuming that we are able to have complete concentration, how long should it take ordinarily for our body to become completely numb?
Kirpal Singh: When Master initiates, He takes you into the Beyond. There are those who see the full sun, full moon, some cross full moon, the very first day of initiation. It happens here. With little thought of His, each man has his own experience according to his background, of course. But there are cases like that, who cross the big star, who sometimes cross moon or sun. It does not take long.
In the time of my Master, I went to someone's home in Rawalpindi. They invited me to come when I went to my office. I just entered their home, sat down; they were all sitting, the husband and his brothers. How long does it take to leave the body? To withdraw? I told them, Do you want to know? All right, I'll show you. I closed my eyes. They thought, He is dead. You see? That takes no time for one who is accustomed. It takes practice. In the beginning it is difficult.
On the very first day you do get something. That something only comes when you rise above the body consciousness or are nearing the top. But we have to develop. That's a very regular Science as two and two make four. No doubt about it. People can have it and See, and that's the only criterion of a Master. No propaganda. People can have propaganda with money; they do so many things. One untruth stated ten times, twenty times, by propaganda, becomes equal to the truth, you see.
Question: Why is it that it's so much more difficult to listen to the Sound than it is to look for the Light?
Kirpal Singh: Because the mind is killed with that Sound. Mind would rather go into the opening of the cannons rather than hear the Sound because hearing the Sound kills the mind forever. He will engage in Seeing all right, but hearing the Sound is difficult. He [mind] says, My death is come … on account of it.
Question: Do You still want us to have exactly the same amount of Sound listening as sight viewing?
Kirpal Singh: That depends on how far you would like to advance. Excuse me. If you want to advance, you would like to put in more time. Both are counterparts, Light and Sound, you see. I say if you give equal time, you'll advance quicker. But generally we do not. Simply hearing the Sound, Sound will drag you into the beyond; you'll see Light. Man must know where he's going; both Light and Sound are a necessity to know where you're going, and the Sound will be dragging you like anything. You do not know where you're going, so both things should be developed. Sound Principle is the guiding principle. Those who take up only Light, they may be enveloped by Light, but do not know where to go further. The Sound Principle guides there. Both things go hand in hand.
Question: I have no more questions, thank You.
Kirpal Singh: Thanks have no value, as I told you the other day. We may give you thousands of dollars. You say, 'All right, thank you.' But if we give little, you also say 'Thank you, thank you.' It's become a misnomer, I would say.
Question: Should we stop saying, "Thank you?"
Kirpal Singh: This is what I say: If I give something from my own self, that requires thanks. But I don't give anything from my own self. What I have got is Somebody's store given to me to look after. That's all I can say at the moment. My Master found me to be quite a spendthrift. So He'd say, All right, go on and have it and do it. That's all. Because it is not my earned money; it is only kept in His favor, you see. Man should, but … I think it would be better if you put in more time. Sound Principle gives you more concentration. And Sound Principle is the only way to control the mind, a quicker way.
It was said in Lord Krishna's lifetime that he plunged into the river Jumna. There was a dragon with a hundred heads. Krishna played on a flute and controlled it. That's a metaphor to show this mind is a hydra-headed dragon within us and how to control it. Mind has a hundred ways to mislead us. If it can be controlled, it can only be controlled by that Sound.
Guru Ramdas says, When you come in contact with Naam, mind is controlled. Things are very clear, like daylight. Not as difficult as people think. Again I would say it is difficult to become a man. God is searching here and there, everywhere for the ideal man. Kabir says, I'm so purified now that God is after me, calling, 'Kabir, Kabir, Kabir.' He follows me like anything.
If a man has got four, five sons, and one son is very dutiful – he just understands the very inkling of what is in his father's mind. He follows without asking for anything. Do you not think father will be after him? Of course, he will give a share to every son; but to the foremost son he will hand over the keys. [He would want him] to look after the interests of others, too. That's all I can say. Be regular. Regularity pays. When you are initiated, that God Power resides in you. That is Master Power, Christ Power. It won't leave you until the end of the world. Unless It takes you to Sat Naam. Sat Naam takes you further, absorbs you into the Wordless State. Now take heed, He is within you. Don't purposely transcend or break His commandments. If a man will keep His commandments, such a man is not to fear, not only in this world, but also in the three worlds.
When Baba Jaimal Singh initiated somebody, He would say, Look here, I am now residing in you, mind that. Don't do anything unlawful. Those were His very words. I am now sitting in you, residing in you. When he [an initiate] came back, He asked, All right, what have you done? How far have you proceeded? Our Master used to ask, How are you? And the man would begin to say, My son was sick. He's all right. My wife was sick. She's all right. I've won such and such litigation case there, this and that. My son has passed such and such examination. And then He'd say, Have you done my work so far? You see? Very politely. Have you done my work? This is His work.
Outer things come as the reactions of the past. Of course, Master helps in all our affairs. You see, there's no shortcoming anywhere. He extends His protection, His physical protection always, whether the initiate knows it or not, even then. The only thing is, we have to turn our faces to Him. The rest He is to look after. If a man has three or four sons, one son says, I want this, Father; give me. – All right. The other says, I want a cycle. – All right. The third says, I want a motor. – All right. The fourth is reticent and doesn't ask for anything. Do you think father will ignore him? Do you think he will ignore him? Will father ignore him? He'll keep everything in reserve for him. To him who will follow his beck and call, I think he will give the keys of the Whole Thing. But such a son will never say, It is mine. He says, It is my father's.
It's always better to be open-minded; leave nothing rankling in your heart. There should be no reservation, no shame, to the worst of questions. No question should be left, you see. Should there be something not clear, there's darkness. Do you think darkness will leave the room by striking its colours or beating it? A little light is required. So if you think anything has not been given – you are most welcome to ask. I haven't said anything imposing or anything like a boss. I have placed before you common-sense talks for understanding.
So it is a great blessing to have a living Master. I tell you many things are cleared. All Scriptures become as open as daylight. Even if you don't understand the language, you'll always See those things.
Once it happened in the time of my Master. I was detailed by Him to give talks, to hold Satsangs. Some people came in a very critical way. They thought perhaps I memorized the talk beforehand (that's why I give everything fluently). One day when the talk was over, I sat with a Sanskrit scholar. He said, I want you to explain … and then he quoted to me in the Sanskrit language something I did not follow except for one or two words. It was a description of Daswan Dwar. He said, You give me an interpretation of this thing. I told him I don't know the Sanskrit language but I can tell you about the place it describes. That is a term meaning there is a light-giving tree with so many lights therein. He said, No, no, no, this word does not mean that. I told him, I don't know whether your scriptures say this or not, but the place about which this refers is like I described. Then another Sanskrit scholar who was there said, This word also means that. You must See things, otherwise the scriptures are sealed books handed down from posterity to posterity and nobody understands what is what. They all say something the authors say, but those who now know, see, and they say the same thing.